Your Client Needs Cash. Where Should It Come From?

Hello, everybody. Welcome to the Income Lab webinar on our new Withdrawal Optimizer. We're going to give everybody a chance to get in the webinar first here. So while we're waiting maybe you can share with us, I just heard from Shelby, there was a heat wave in San Francisco recently so you can let us know what the hottest temperature was that you hit this summer. I think we probably may have hit 100 in Golden, Colorado, maybe high 90s, 98, 99, something like that couple days. If you throw that in the chat, we'll see who wins 104 right now. Okay, somebody hit 110. 101 Delaware. 116, okay, you definitely had me very much beat there was no chance that our meager high 90s was going to win 116 so far, I think is the winner. So I hope you're all past that. We're definitely cooling down, got the cool evenings these days, which is absolutely lovely, even though I think it's in the 80s today. Just check here all right so we are I'm having a few technical difficulties getting Derek, my co-host in the meeting let's handle that for a second. Shelby, you want to send him A new link so you can get in there alright so what we're waiting for, Derek, I will I'll kick things off. So thanks everybody for joining us. This is actually a really interesting topic. I'm going to start out with actually, before just jumping into some a feature demo or software demo, as we've built new tools inside of Penny, which is our tactical intelligence tool. So it's for the kinds of planning tasks and things that are point-in-time, deliver something to the client, take actions today. As we've done that, people have asked us more and more about tools for helping you plan withdrawals and we've realized in talking with clients or talking with advisors, the number of challenges and even risks in withdrawal planning is actually huge. And this is an underserved area for financial advisors. So this client request, it turns out, is incredibly common probably weekly. The fact is, if you're managing money for a client, at some point, they're going to ask for some of it. And I don't just mean you'll have a retirement plan where there'll be a systematic withdrawal plan and so on. Of course, that's going to happen. Of course that's a really important thing to plan for, and Income Lab helps you do that. But there's other stuff that happens where people need money. So they might just call up and say, hey, I need $50,000. Can you send me $50,000? Maybe they'll say, oh, we got to sell some things. Can you send me a check? Maybe it's a new car. Maybe it's $20,000 for a new roof maybe it's $10,000 for a new air conditioning. It's this thing happens all the time. It usually is not going to blow up a plan to do a small or even medium size withdrawal. And it seems pretty basic to the client. It shouldn't be a big deal but. That's not what it actually is to the advisor. And so I'm sure you've probably run into these thoughts in your head before. Okay, they asked for 50,000, but hang on, is it really $50,000, or do I need to gross this up for taxes so that I can help them make sure that we're in good shape next April. Which account should they tap? Which accounts do they not tap? Which holdings should they sell? Which should they not sell on the holdings front? Maybe it's because you have a particular investment strategy. Maybe it's that, I don't know, some holding was inherited from someone, and they don't plan on selling that. There's all sorts of investment-related and account-related issues that come up the biggest non-investment issue is just what are the tax consequences of this action? So should we minimize tax? Should we sell high basis stock? Should we harvest gains? Should we harvest, sorry, should we harvest losses? Should we harvest gains in order to maybe there's some space in the 0% bracket. Would this which deductions and credits and things would could they potentially lose if they take from certain kinds of accounts? Should they take from tax-deferred accounts, though? Is there a reason to do that? If so, what about withholding? Should we follow whatever we have on the account already, or should we change the withholdings for this withdrawal? Are there RMDs? Maybe they're somebody who's in RMD phase. Have they taken those yet this year? Maybe we should just take this money for RMDs because you're going to have to take that anyway. Should they manage their tax brackets or Medicare IRMAA brackets by tapping Roth accounts? We don't normally tap from Roth accounts, at least not just as a matter of course, because Roth balances are so valuable because they grow tax-free and can be used tax-free but maybe there's a reason to do that in order to avoid an IRMAA bracket, for example, can be thousands of percent marginal tax rate because $1 will bring you potentially thousands of dollars of taxes maybe they're before Medicare and they're in ACA credit range. And so you're managing that. So there are all of these amazingly complicated things to consider maybe it's… should we consider some charitable giving to offset some of the tax impacts? Are there estimated payments to be made because of this withdrawal? So just very administrative stuff what about safe harbor provisions? Are we going to make sure that if we take this withdrawal, if there's a certain amount of extra taxes here, do we want to make sure that we're not causing tax penalties and interest in the future? Probably you might want to coordinate with a tax advisor in all of this. So basically, this is complicated. How do I get it right? So to sum this up, the advisor, there's this amazing disconnect between what the client thinks the request is. Which is just, hey, I need some money, can you send me a check? And with the advisor actually knows is going on, which is, oh man, there's a lot to consider here. Might need to coordinate with tax advisors I need to get this right. It's not just generating cash. It's generating the right cash from the right place at the right cost. There is going to be a cost, right? It's not that, well, in a lot of cases, there is going to be a cost, so it's not necessarily we have to avoid all taxes, but what's the right way to do this? And in general, what we're hearing from advisors, and just if you do the math on this, a withdrawal plan needs to be three things. And by withdrawal plan somebody calls, they want $50,000 it's the plan for how we're going to get them, the $50,000. So this is a tactical withdrawal. And so it needs to be three things. It needs to be investment smart. So clearly, if we're selling investments, we need to take into account the fact that this isn't all about taxes. So there are some investment things going on here. You may have other processes like rebalancing and things that also come into play at other points in the year, so that may not… that's not the only thing to consider here. It needs to be tax smart in the sense that it needs to pay attention to the tax consequences, and it needs to be plan smart, meaning it needs… you need to know what the context of this withdrawal is. So what's going on this year, and maybe a couple years from now as well. So investment smart, we're gonna be following the IPS, if there is one, but also there may be maybe less formalized, things, or maybe it's simply the investment strategy in the in their plan. Maybe there are certain accounts that maybe this is a, well, it needs to come from john's accounts, not mary's, right? So there's just this general awareness of the accounts and their holdings. But overall, this has been a theme for many years as the industry is focused on net of tax returns leading to a lot of focus on things like tax loss harvesting, tax gain harvesting, direct indexing, all of these have been about net of tax returns that I think we can sort of summarize in this saying, you'll see out in the internet, which is gross of tax returns is a vanity metric, meaning it's great, great gross of tax returns is awesome, but the money you can actually receive and spend is the real returns. And so, getting this wrong, can also really limit the, the good investment decisions people have made if we make bad Tax decisions. Let's see okay. Justin, I was slacking with him. His computer's just frozen, so it might take a second for him to get in. Alright no problem. Okay so what is tax smart mean? If we're saying, okay, investments obviously important, but net of tax returns. This is a great way to do better for your client. It's awareness of tax thresholds awareness of how deductions and credits can phase out, the interactions of different parts of the tax system. So, for example, higher ordinary income can lead long-term cap gains income that wasn't taxed to become taxed. It's awareness of Medicare premiums and surcharges, Medicare IRMAA, which is the surcharge on parts B and D of Medicare, that are income-related. It's again ACA credits if people are pre-Medicare. Social Security taxability safe harbor rules, withholdings, and so on. So it's really that broad and there's a lot of work on this about how tax smart investing and distributions can add to net of tax returns. There's a range of findings here, and certainly it depends on the particular situation, the client's situation, there are people for whom maybe there's not a lot of juice available in the squeeze of tax smart investing, and there's people where there's a ton. So vanguard, probably best known on this when they did their advisor alpha research, said asset location can add up to 30 basis points. Tax loss harvesting. We've seen some financial analyst journal articles on this and lots of other articles, of course, that talk about 40 to 80 basis points. Direct indexing test loss harvesting, so this is not, by the way, this is not additive, necessarily. Can be even more than that, and withdrawal sequencing can be, again, even more than that. So, in general, we're talking about somewhere under 2%, one and a half percent of additional net of tax returns just from being tax smart, both on the investing and the distribution side. And that's a big deal. That's a lot. So that's where we get to this gross of tax returns as a vanity metric. And finally, we want the withdrawal plan to be planned smart. And this is probably the place where our work on this has been most interesting because not everyone does financial planning, deep financial planning of course, we love financial planning at Income Lab. We have financial planning software that does amazing things. But different practices do different things. But every practice that manages money sends clients money does withdrawals, does distributions. And what we realized in working through this is, even if you're not a really deep planner doing extensive analysis of long-term plans at least a reasonable short-term plan is needed to be plan smart in your withdrawals. So just knowing, hey, what non-portfolio income is coming this year, right? Do we have wages? Do we have pensions? Do we have Social Security is on here, right? What other withdrawals are planned for this year? And from where especially right? Are we planning to do withdrawals from taxable accounts, tax deferred accounts, Roth accounts? Are we doing Roth conversions? The context of what's happening this year is super important for getting the one-off withdrawal plan right are we doing RMDs? If so, how much? How much of the RMDs have already been taken? We need Medicare timing. We need to know, are we 63 or older? where our MAGI for this year is really going to matter in two years and we probably need to know things like prior year AGI so that we can get our safe harbor calculations right. So that, of course, is what the Withdrawal Optimizer is all about. And we're going to move into a demo of how the Optimizer works, how it gets you past through all of these challenges really quickly, gives you A great way to memorialize them and so on. But who does this help? Typically, it's clients who have investments in multiple account types or have embedded or unrealized capital gains or losses. And that, of course, is most, most clients, right? It also helps if people have RMDs, if people are in that transitional zone of where they're still in the marginal rate zone. So if somebody has maybe married filing jointly, maybe 850, 900,000 in taxable income they're getting the top end of that range. So it would still certainly matter for capital gains and losses, but you're not managing marginal rates as much at that point it's certainly anybody who had Medicare or ACA credits, people are taking Social Security, and people who are charitably inclined, because all of these things can be involved in a withdrawal plan, a really smart withdrawal plan. Who doesn't it help? Typically, people who only have IRAs or 401ks or less common, but if they only had roths. And then for people who have such low income that even with the extra withdrawal, the income is still not taxable. So this is obviously a very small number of people, but certainly there are these cases all right, so with that, and by the way, I didn't do any of the housekeeping at the beginning, but if you have questions, I'd love it if you threw them into the Q&A, which is you have to go to the little circle with three dots in it and it's the Q&A button there. You're welcome to use the chat. You can keep telling us how hot it has been. But it's hard to manage and find the questions there. So looks like we already do have A question here, but I'm gonna hit the Withdrawal Optimizer demo before we take any questions. And it looks like we got our technical difficulties sorted out, and we have my friend Derek tharp here, so welcome, Derek. Should qualify that with partially sorted out. We're back up and running with some of the things I've prepared are not yeah okay. All right. We'll let you keep working, and I'll, I'll take over the, the demo for the time being, and then we can ask you if you sort things out to jump in at another time. All right, so for those of you who are new to this, this is Income Lab. I'm just looking at all my households here, and I can go to our app launcher and launch Penny. That beta tag is actually coming off very soon. And it will take me to this area where I'll go back here essentially, like I said, this is our tactical intelligence area. So it's… it's not about long-term strategic planning. The core Income Lab app is all about that. It's amazing at that. This is about how do we take a plan and turn it into actions today. And you can do that either by opening an Income Lab household, which is generally what I do, or you can actually upload a tax return or other file into Penny and get an analysis that way. So there's a ton of tax stuff you can do here. Once you're in there, then, you have all these tools, and you also have an AI chat to do this, do these analysis. We have tax tools, Medicare tools, estate planning tools. Very soon, we're going to have some other sections in here. But these are all about that tactical planning, right? Maybe it's you want to do an NUA analysis. We're doing a rollover? Should we do net unrealized appreciation? What would it be worth to us, and so on. Maybe you want to make sure you do an estimated taxes right or optimize for your W-4. Maybe you want to do IRMAA appeal. There's all these little things that are incredibly valuable to clients and point solutions and the Withdrawal Optimizer is one of these. So. I already have created a fake household here called the Withdrawal Optimizer example. Unlikely that's a real name. And you can already see that now I already had typed 200,000 in here before, so it saved it, but the only thing I would have to put in here if I hadn't done anything is that and immediately it's going to give me a recipe for the withdrawal plan. Now here it's not a very interesting recipe, because even though I have a cash in hand setting, meaning I want to gross this up to handle my taxes, there was a way in this brokerage account of providing me with that $200,000 with zero taxes. So it already found me matching gains and losses for tesla and barrick mining corporation for these examples, I like to just see who has a one letter ticker symbol. There's definitely lots of them out there. Some are more famous than others. So boom, we're done, right? But of course, that's not always the case. Sometimes you actually will have to gross up the taxes. So just to force it to gross up the taxes, I'm going to take the taxable brokerage account out of the plan. Forcing it to only take from the IRA and Roth IRA. And it looks like actually I'm going to turn off a couple things here just to okay. And so it is saying, okay, great, to get $200,000, I'm gonna need to gross up, by $63,000 and change in order to cover the taxes for this. So that's what cash in hand means. If I just wanted the gross withdrawal it'll do it and figure the taxes as well, and now I'm going to net 150. This is covering all the taxes. If instead I wanted to just cover a safe harbor, and I knew if my plan had this, by the way, it would know the last year's numbers but I'm going to throw them in here. And now it's going to figure out, okay, instead of paying all the tax, let's just pay enough to cover the safe harbor. So now we say, okay, we're paying 50,000, but we're estimating that you're gonna owe another $10,000 for this at filing in 2027. But the default is cover everything, of course. And we can see and this it's it's telling me where to take the funds from. It's telling me what the withholding will be, and because I have my withholding here set at 20%. It's maxing it out at 20% and then telling me, well, to cover this whole thing, you'd want to make this extra estimated payment. Here's the form number. By the way if I gave this a state. I don't know. Let's go with New Jersey. Then it's going to give me New Jersey as well. Okay, make this estimated payment in New Jersey. If, however, I'm willing to override these, so maybe these are my set numbers, and I really don't want to mess with resetting up standing orders on withholding, I can leave them as that. But if I want to go ahead and say, well, optimize my withholding, maybe I could avoid making an estimated payment then it's already… it's gonna set up my withholding. It's going to say do 24% federal 6.7 New Jersey. And now, I don't have to do an estimated payment. All right lots of other things we can do here. So I noted you can remove things from the recipe. You can also remove or cap particular holdings. So maybe I don't want to sell tesla. I'm only willing to sell, I don't know, $10,000 of barrick mining corporation now we're going to see, okay. I'm I'm capped at doing that. I can even, if I wanted I don't have it here, but if I had multiple IRAs and I can do the same here, by the way. I could set an account order. So this only has one brokerage, or one taxable, one IRA and one Roth, but if I had multiple, I could say, hey hit this one first so I can create, like, a waterfall of where I would where I would access them. And again, you're getting immediate answers. And it's our goal here was to have an actual recipe and the reason we use that is because I literally, like, I want to. I always hate it. I don't know if you cook at all, but if you do like internet recipes, it's really annoying if you have to. They say, oh, now add the baking soda and it's like, well, how much? Yeah, you got to scroll 20 lines, 20 pages up past their story of how they made this 5 different ways, and their kids really liked it, in order to find, oh, it's half a teaspoon, right? So we just want it all right there, so that exactly what to do, and it's the actual actions. Again. Penny is about taking a plan into… into actual actions. If you do want to understand what's going on, though, there's an analysis section. Again, we separate the actions from the analysis so you can see, okay, well, what's going on here? Alright we have taxable amounts, we have new taxes. Sometimes you can have a new tax without a taxable amount. That's because you're losing deductions and credits. So you might wonder, oh, maybe I should go here. Oh, there it is. Looks like I'm losing part of my senior bonus. That must be why you got before and after on all these. You got per account, where are things coming from? You even have a rate analysis, which is showing you what the taxes are on each, on each portion of the withdrawal if I here we'll go back to the IRA and Roth section so we can see what the marginal rates are on each piece here. By default, we're going to be tax optimizing, which is really minimizing extra taxation this year. Within all the other constraints, but here's where you can maybe you don't care, and you just want to go pro rata or here's where you can turn off an on gain and loss harvesting. Probably one of the most useful pieces, though, here is that you can do bracket management here. So if I wanted to make sure that, for example, these folks are already in retirement. If I want to make sure that I don't get them into IRMAA trouble, I can set a cap. All right. I want to cap it in tier 0, meaning no IRMAA, which is MAGI up to 218,000 and immediately it's going to figure out how much comes from my IRA. I turned off the taxable account in order to force it to take from the IRA and how much comes from the Roth in order to keep MAGI at 218. Now maybe you say, well, okay, first of all, we don't really know what IRMAA rates will be in two years. They'll probably be this adjusted a little bit up, but maybe I want to just keep a little buffer, so I want to do 210. Okay boom, we're at 2:10. So this is probably one of the most useful pieces here. You can do it on federal tax brackets. You can do MAGI for IRMAA. And if you have people doing ACA credits, you can do 400% of the federal poverty limit. And with the ability to set. And by the way, MAGI for ACA credits is actually slightly different than MAGI for Medicare, because why not, right? So it's all gonna… it's gonna handle all of that right here. Another thing is, if you are, if the clients, or at least one of the clients, is an RMD phase, it's going to load in your Income Lab plan if there is one. And it's gonna assume that you had the withdrawals already, but if you didn't and you want to zero them out, go for it. Zero them out. And now, I'm going to go back to allowing it to do taxable brokerage. Now it's going to say, okay, well we still need to do some RMDs this year, so might as well take those. Those have to come out this year. There's no way we avoid them. So if you need $200,000, well, let's go ahead and take the IRA distribution. There's no way of getting around that anyway. And so it'll go ahead and take that if maybe you've taken some of it. So you've taken, I don't know, $20,000 or something. Okay, then it'll take less. If you want to just ignore RMDs, you're welcome to do that. Sometimes maybe RMDs have already been taken. Maybe they're earmarked. people sometimes do mental accounting like, oh, that RMD, that's for this other thing. Okay, fine. We can ignore that so many options here, but again, you actually don't even need to go into the advanced inputs. You can I'm going to back all these out it'll default to optimizing holding, not doing bracket management, and just trying to limit the taxes for this year. In the first place, it'll default to assuming that you have taken, or you will take, that this is basically on top of any of your RMDs for the year, and so on. So, you don't need to do this, you'll actually have a full recipe, without having gotten into the details. All right, let's see here. Maybe we'll hit some questions. All right. Oh, and by the way, I think I said this, but and it looks like you're using it, but there's a little thumbs up that you can use to upvote things. So I generally will try to use that. Okay, joanne. Has a has feature request. Could you build a five-year plan. Yeah, absolutely. I like that this is definitely a, like, let's do this now, but if you said, well, I need this much over the next five years, but it is an extra thing, yeah. It doesn't do it yet, to be clear, but that's a great idea. Will you be pulling in tickers and cost basis from Altruist? Yes, that's definitely on the… on the roadmap. We have them from Schwab. I believe we will very soon, or we may already have them from red tail and then we will have them from orion very soon as well. You can enter holdings manually. I know that's not the most fun thing in the world, but you can do it. And by the way, if there are no holdings in the plan, it will still do this. It won't be able to identify gains and losses, obviously it'll assume that it's blended. But you can still do a lot of this without the without holdings in the actual account. And of course. If you're going to sell things the actual proceeds, there's no way to guarantee what the proceeds are from a sale, because they actually have to sell, even if it's a mutual fund it's going to be at whatever the price was, right? So these are all going to be estimated anyway. But yeah still useful even if you don't have the holdings in there, though obviously it's amazing if you… if you do have them. What are the options? I thought you could only import account balances. So yeah, I guess this is a good time to show this off. So if you have and integration with through one of those that I just mentioned. So Schwab, Redtail, orion very soon, but eventually everyone who offers that through their integration, we will have it. It will automatically set your account allocation option to holdings. And then it will show you the holdings, I think it just shows the top ones here. In this case, I only put in 5, but you can manage all of these in the… in the plan itself, you can also create custom holdings. So maybe, I don't know, the comcast bond doesn't have a… it didn't come in, or there is no ticker symbol for it. So you can do that. You can also… there's some you can get company details here, and see I can go to their website. I can see how they're being allocated. I can see some key statistics and you performance of up to a year. As well as a company overview. So all this happens automatically if you have those integrations, but you can also just name them, right? So maybe one of the most famous… well, it's not coming through. Oh, here. C, yeah, Citigroup, right? You can just put them in and in this case, I already had it. So maybe it's I don't know. I thought F was Ford. For some reason I'm having a little bit of a lag on this, but you can just put them in manually. As well. So from this, it will then figure out your allocation and so on. And then, when you're doing this work in Penny, you're gonna… you're gonna be pulling those in. Justin, maybe just a quick, I'm looking ahead at some of the questions and there was questions about like the asset classes, how they get mapped to tickers and sound like some of those aren't maybe mapping in the best way possible, so is that yeah as we… so we've we obviously have a system that maps them to an allocation, so if you see… I think there is one, bug that is currently being fixed. So if you see any misclassifications, definitely let us know. So, generally, for A, a stock, it's based on well-established breakpoints between small, mid-large growth value and so on for mutual funds. We have a data source that gives us those. So, but again, if you're seeing any misallocations, definitely let us know on those. We're definitely aware of, like I said, I think there's at least one I know somebody's working on let's see here. Yodlee, no, Yodlee does not provide holdings and not in the system we have anyway. Let's see here we do not have an integration with eMoney. Although I do know I believe there are people who use some of our other integrations that also integrate with eMoney, so potentially Redtail may be a conduit for that data. PreciseFP may also be a conduit for that. So this gets into the I don't know, integration strategy, I guess, for your tech stack, right? Do you have daisy chained links and ways to do it that way. So that would be my recommendation if there's any other system. We also are working on, we have these, the AI plan builder, and we're working on adding ticker symbol coverage to that so that you can upload a statement and it will fill the state, fill the ticker symbols in for you not as good as an integration, which we keep up to date, but definitely a good first step. Cost basis. Yes, I believe I already answered that. Yep, we definitely have cost basis through the Schwab integration. How would you identify a holding that should not be sold? The main thing is just you can completely just check it off. That's probably the best way to do it. But if maybe there's just a limitation you want to make on it, you can set a cap. You'll also notice that it will then tell you okay yeah we have $1.38 million in here. But given that we got rid of apple from the… from the possibilities, now I really only have 853,000. So, as I yeah get rid of these now the only recourse it has is Citigroup here. See, there's a there's a question that's out in the main chat, asking about state taxes. And yes, those are factored in here. Yeah they absolutely are. My example just initially did not have one, but as soon as you do it. And this is actually interesting. some of the withholdings and estimated payments. There are different rules in different states. So, for example for this one, for California, it's not until January 15th. I believe there are also kind of, minimums or thresholds for when you have to make an estimated payment. So I think for the US. For federal, it's $1,000. So if I were if I reduced this. I might be able to get it to tell me that I have to oh, and also withholding levels. There may be a minimum withholding. This will also handle like 401ks have a 20% automatic withholding, so you won't be able to this I can actually reduce, but with a 401k, I can't yeah orion, I don't think is yet live, but that is coming very soon, eric. So hang with us. Help is on the way another question out in the main chat on handling annuities and hmm. One thing you can do, like, if you didn't want to sell from an annuity, that's one, you can just say, okay, don't include that account. It will also give you an option to apply like a 10% cap, if that's a feature of the annuity. But I don't know, Justin, anything else you want to yeah add on that yeah that's right. And I actually should have created an example with an annuity or life insurance policy, but it will identify also when there are options for, like, a cash value life insurance at a potential 0. We it'll generally call those out rather than saying, oh, this is your plan, simply because there can be a lot of complications about I don't know Withdrawal fees, or maybe… maybe it's an annuity that has a living benefit, and so we don't want to assume you could take more from it. So because of all those extra surrender charges or things like that, it'll call them out and say, it looks like there's a I don't know, a whole life policy with $200,000 in cash balance, you may want to consider that as well. But it won't simply impose it as the ideal way to do it. So we're trying to kind of we started this presentation saying this is a really common, but like fraught thing we have to do for clients. And so we're trying to be careful on those things and make sure we're not saying, oh, take $30,000, and then that blows up your living benefit cost surrender charges or things like that we did get a question about systematic withdrawals. Yes, there is a version of this coming that will be about systematic withdrawals with where there is overlap in the concepts, it'll look the same, but it'll be about, okay, this is what systematic withdrawals look like for the next short bit, typically it's going to be a two-year period, and if you want to look at it in monthly, quarterly, semiannual, annual, and see, oh, what sorts of systematic withdrawal orders would I have to put in to match the plan, and so on that'll be… that'll be in that tool. So that is… that is also coming. So this is only available for those who have Penny, by the way, which is in Income Lab Pro. Let's see. Will it show the impact nat, good question. Yeah, so this was another… the question was, okay, maybe they've decided, look, we're taking the 50,000. I got it, I… whatever, buying the car and so the other thing that is soon to come is a okay adjust my plan for this, and then see the impact of it. So yeah, absolutely. And all of the knock-on effects of that, nat, which is a big deal. So this is more built as a just short tactical let's deal with it today. But yeah, making it easy for you to adjust the plan, see, oh, does this mean I don't know, now this year, we should target a different Roth bracket, or something like that. That'll… that's also coming. All right. And Justin, maybe just an aside, and I apologize if I missed it if you said this, but I think taking it as an advisor, looking at all the software that's on the market right now and different we see a lot of AI driven tax tools and things emerging. I would say that like going through the process of especially this tool in particular and looking at like all the nuances of all the different decisions and the sequencing and do you want to take up to this limit, this, like, there's just so many little considerations in there, but that really as an advisor with my own clients, that gives me a lot of hesitation around some of the more AI-driven tools that aren't it might be hard to get that reliably in there. Whereas a tool like this, again, that just in case anybody is aware, because sometimes there's confusion with Penny, this is not an AI driven tool. This is all basically one big calculator. And you can manipulate the calculator, you can use the tool you can use Penny in some ways to help you do that, and that's maybe another topic to get into, but the tool itself isn't going to hallucinate a number. It's not going to oops, I forgot you didn't want California withholding taken care of. Like, it's going to be built out how you put the input, so I do think that's something important just as all the tools we're using as advisors that we're being mindful of how they… how consistent they are in situations like that. Yeah the use of the AI chat should be more about explain this to me. Well, okay, why is it doing it this way? And we given it the context so that you can say. Why am I taking from the IRA instead of the taxable account and in this case I actually don't remember what we had set up here. But it will look at what you've put in it's going to be pretty obvious. It's going to be because you told me not to use the taxable account. But yeah, taxable brokerage is excluded, right? And then it's explaining all of it. What's going on there? So that's… that's more typical about how we try to integrate AI into this tool, less as a do the math for me, and more of a explain this, or you can even, I know Derek has given this example before where in the scenario builder, there's a good example of this. He'll create a new scenario by simply putting a transcript of a meeting in and saying, hey, build me a scenario based on this and then you'll get an entirely new scenario with all the dollar amounts filled out. So this scenario builder, which is here for probably we need a whole webinar someday where Derek can show people how this works, but it's things… it's things like, well, I don't know, what if I moved to, California? And so on, maybe I didn't bring yeah. Need to load the baseline plan, I guess so yeah, here we go. Maybe I'm in Alaska. Moved to California. What's that going to cost me? Okay, it's going to cost me 1600 bucks in taxes. That's a simple example, but lots of things you can do. You can see, okay, well, what's the where do I find those differences? Oh, there they are you can actually have the AI create these for you. So all that work that you tend to do if you're keying in different things, you can just use AI to do the data entry. Yeah I do think that's a really important point to make though around if you're using the ask Penny, playing around with that, like that's think of it as like a helper there to help answer questions about the plans. In some cases it can make some edits and things like that tell you more context, or explain why, like, if you're really confused on a tax result, like tell me what's going on here, and try to get to understand it better, versus the… I've seen some people that have shared their experiences with Penny or something, and they're just going into, like, the free form chat throwing a tax document in there, like, just free form asking questions for it, and that's really not the way to get the most power out of Penny. You want to use the calculators, use the tools, then let Penny help you and understand it even better, rather than just going straight there. But just throw that out there as a kind of an aside to the Withdrawal Optimizer specifically. Let's see. I only had a few of these others with upvotes. The holdings feature is not only for pro, so that should be in everybody's version so yeah, we should be getting ticker symbols in there. We are for firms where Penny needs to be approved. We are working hard on those, so absolutely bear with us as we get those approvals through do we have tax data for the current year this is a really good example, not yet, but it is something that a lot of people have asked for. So for example, when I showed you, okay, it's gonna, this is the plan smart part of it. Like, hey, what do we expect this year? And I think somebody mentioned, oh that's always a fun thing, right? Toward the end of the year well what did we expect versus what did we get? How much more do we think we're getting this year? It will preload what is in your Income Lab plan, right? So it's got my Social Security benefits, my IRA distributions, the MAGI that's being used for Medicare this year, it's got interest income all this stuff, and this is all based on the plan itself which has assumptions about dividend yields and turnover and things like that which is as it should be, right? no one knows what dividends will be or cap gains will really be next year, 5 years from now, 10 years from now but for this year, you probably will want to come in here and say, well, especially if it's toward the end of the year, say, okay, maybe I should dial these in a little bit. We expected $10,000 in cap gains, but I'm looking at it and we actually haven't sold anything yet because I don't know, dividends were so high or something so you can adjust these things. We do have plans to give you an option of saying, hey load in my so far this year. The issue is, of course, you'd need all your accounts to be integrated, right? If you had one account that was a we didn't have that data. You'd want to know, well, how much of this is do I know for sure? And how much do I have to estimate myself? So we're working through what that would be like. But obviously that would be an amazing feature. So for now, I think the workflow is look at these, the investment income especially is probably the place you're going to want to check presumably if you had I don't know, earned income maybe you would have already updated the plan if they had gotten a raise or something like that. But Derek, I don't know, just in a couple minutes we have left, are there I think you've been using this tool already. I don't know if there are some stories or workflows or things you want to share with everybody. I think maybe the way I would even close the thinking about this is to go back to the really simple use case, like where you've got the assumptions basically set up for the household, right? You don't need to go into the advance. You don't need to say, don't distribute from this account. You don't need to say. Like, it's just a really straightforward case. And you type in how much you need, and it's going to give you that number, right? Like that's the real magic of the tool. And so justin's very simple case here where somebody says they need 50,000, they go in, and then all of a sudden we see, okay, looks like there's two holdings in the taxable brokerage account. Let's go there and get that done right that's really meant to be the very quick easy way to answer these questions that a lot of times, I think most advisors, myself included, are probably just relying on heuristics. They're like our go-to, like, oh, yeah, I guess it's probably the IRA is going to be the next account. Let's go there. Let's like, we're not necessarily in every case doing a full spreadsheet, checking every account, looking for every opportunity. So really just trying to surface that. And I say that in part because I think just looking at some of the comments that have come in talking about like, oh. There's a lot of things going on. This looks very complicated and like the point is, yes, you can go to that level of detail. But the tool is meant to be really easy to use and quick. And this example with a taxable brokerage account probably isn't even the what I would say maybe the most powerful, even more powerful might be a case where you're, okay, it's telling you it will take from the inherited IRA here, then take from this IRA, then take some roths that you stay under a limit or something like this is probably a case where most advisors might have had an intuitive sense where it's coming from here, but some of those more, okay, we need to take from several different accounts, I think is where it's really going to be helpful. Do you need to have a full plan built in order to use this tool? At the moment, yes. in theory, you really could just enter all of this yourself but in order to get the holdings and all that stuff that is getting pulled from the plan. So yes we probably will allow at some point some more customization here, but it can be fairly confusing if you're changing holdings and things here, while you're doing that on the fly, do you really mean that to be changing the plan, and so on. So, but nat, that's a good question. So you do need to build a plan. I would say as a general point for like getting the most power out of Penny as well, because we're focusing on this tool here. But if we're talking about the IRMAA appeals or any of the other tools that we have in there, really making sure you do have a base plan as up-to-date as you can, including future income, if somebody knows their they said they were going to retire. Originally, the plan said 10 years from now, and now they say it's seven years, like, going in, getting that updated is just going to give you the best ability to really take advantage of the full capabilities. So trying to keep an updated plan is probably a best practice, but I guess the use case, Justin, maybe where somebody might not have that if they had a tax return, they knew the tax return was going to be very similar to last year, but somebody doesn't have an Income Lab plan. They could upload the tax return. They could use that as a baseline, and then they could put in some approximate account balances or something of that exactly. Yeah, so some way of just saying, well, okay, of course, tax return doesn't have account information, so some way of just doing a quick account information, but as the as we see in the Q&A here, of course, everybody prefers integrations or uploading a form A document and having AI parse it for you, all that stuff is much easier. So definitely that our focus is really on getting the integrations better, and I do hear, in fact, just heard from somebody else the other day, complaining a little bit about our Yodlee integration, so. That is definitely, I understand it's been a source of frustration. You're not alone. And good to hear that not everyone who uses Yodlee is having that issue. So we've definitely take that under advisement. Uploading spreadsheets. I agree, nat. And that would be the thing that to get holdings in, it's a really quite an easy way to do it. Robert, integrations are key. How long will it take to get an integration with eMoney. I think it's… it seems unlikely at this point. I think that'll that'll happen to be candid. But I would say that yeah absolutely unlikely to have the integration, but perhaps other avenues that we can help people out in easily building plans even faster, even more convenient. So those are, I would say not to be discouraging in that there will never be ways to get information over easy. We're definitely thinking about that. Yeah already, certainly there's the AI plan builder has been a total game changer. People are building plans all the time with eMoney plans, just uploading a plan document and boom, they have the plan. So that's already available. There are other things doubtless around the corner that would help with this. So yeah, definitely don't. Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean it to be discouraging. There are already ways and there will be more to get eMoney connected with your Income Lab. All right. All right. Does it show what percentage comes from which holding? I believe we did show that. Yes, it does. Somebody was asking about, hey, can you… can you ask it to create $10,000 in tax? I don't believe so, but that's certainly a decent feature. We could easily throw in here, so thank you for the request Justin, I see one that might be a might be one that we need to address as some update, but Roth basis is that yeah we have had that question a few times, and given that, yeah, you might be using this with younger folks pre 59 and a half, and so that is a thing. We actually have a whole new set of things about contributions and basis and things coming for not just Roth IRAs, but regular IRAs. So yeah, stay tuned for that. Good, good point. Thank you for that greg all right, with one minute left, I don't know, Derek, any last thoughts on how you use this or I'm just curious for people's feedback as they start using it and definitely wanting to continue to improve this and I hope advisors are finding and saving them time yeah I guess I can close with this. When you have finished your you think, okay, this is where we want to go. You can configure your report for withdrawals, it's just going to be the recipe and a couple of tax things. But if you want more of the analysis, you can do that hit continue, boom, save it as a PDF. And off you go. So this is true for pretty much every Penny tool, is that because there are these tactical things, and you want to be able to kind of memorialize them you're gonna print off, or at least save a PDF and you can use that, use it for communication with CPA and so on. So yeah, always look up here in the banner, you got some good options. So with that, thank you everybody for joining us. And we hope you'll check out the tool, give us some feedback. I already got some good feedback from this, and we'll see you all again soon. Take care.